Post by Admin_Dan on Nov 21, 2006 16:20:13 GMT -5
NOTE: The following is from a conversation between Dan Lirette and a Brother in the Faith:
Original Sin?
By Dan Lirette
JKWilliamsSr Said:First in Romans 3:23 it says that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" That right there states that every single person have sinned. It does not single any group out. "ALL" is inclusive to every human being, Man, Woman and Child.
DAN'S RESPONSE: Correct...all HAVE sinned; yet let us note that the "all" referred to here does not include babies, thus it is NOT inclusive of those who are not under the law, and Paul states clearly that without the law there is no knowledge of sin, and babies are not under law and are thus alive; hence, all have sinned in the sphere of knowledge....to state a baby is a sinner would directly contradict Paul's statement in Romans 7 verse 9:
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Here we see Paul, not "dead in tresspasses in sin" but alive as there was no law to convict him of sin, thereby causing spiritual death.
JKWilliamsSr Said: In Psalm 51, David is repenting for his sins and if you look at verse 5 you will see that it he is talking about being conceived in Sin, it states: "Behold, I was brought fourth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me"
DAN'S RESPONSE: To place this verse as teaching the Doctrine of Original Sin would do great injustice to several passages which would clearly contradict your view.
For instance:
“The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, p. 196).
JKWilliamsSr Said: Now when you think about that you can also notice how the conception of Jesus was not done in a manner consistent with our human births. That also signifies how we are born in sin becuase the only sinless man to walk the earth was not conceived in our manner.
JKWilliamsSr Said: Another thing to think about. If we are not born into sin why did we need Jesus to come pay the price?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Jesus did not pay for "Original" sin... He paid for MY sin which I MYSELF comitted; so I believe.
DAN'S RESPONSE: As for David being conceived in sin, could such an interpretation stand in light of the exegetical contextual interpretation of the Word of God?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Scripture clearly states that sin is NOT inherited:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God
Also, Scripture states that we become sinners in our YOUTH, not out infancy:
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Jeremiah 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
In conclusion:
Here is what Wayne Jackson states concerning verse 5 of Psalm 51:
Others have suggested that David alludes to an incident in his ancestral lineage, an adulterous affair (Gen. 3Cool, whereby he was considered ceremonially defiled because he was of the 10th generation of that unlawful intercourse (Deut. 23:2). This is probably a rather remote possibility.
The same author notes:
In a similarly poetic section, for example, Job, in denying that he had neglected his benevolent responsibilities, affirmed that he had cared for the orphan and the widow from his mother’s womb! Surely, no one believes that on day one of Job’s existence that he was out ministering to the needy! In fact, the Hebrew parallelism of this verse (Job 31:1Cool, clearly indicates that the word “womb” is used in the sense of “youth.”
In conclusion, how do you reconcile your Original Sin doctrine, based on one verse, with what I have herein stated?
I look forward to your response, brother.
May God continue to use you as you continue to serve Him.
Blessings in Yeshua,
In Christ,
Dan
Original Sin?
By Dan Lirette
JKWilliamsSr Said:First in Romans 3:23 it says that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" That right there states that every single person have sinned. It does not single any group out. "ALL" is inclusive to every human being, Man, Woman and Child.
DAN'S RESPONSE: Correct...all HAVE sinned; yet let us note that the "all" referred to here does not include babies, thus it is NOT inclusive of those who are not under the law, and Paul states clearly that without the law there is no knowledge of sin, and babies are not under law and are thus alive; hence, all have sinned in the sphere of knowledge....to state a baby is a sinner would directly contradict Paul's statement in Romans 7 verse 9:
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Here we see Paul, not "dead in tresspasses in sin" but alive as there was no law to convict him of sin, thereby causing spiritual death.
JKWilliamsSr Said: In Psalm 51, David is repenting for his sins and if you look at verse 5 you will see that it he is talking about being conceived in Sin, it states: "Behold, I was brought fourth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me"
DAN'S RESPONSE: To place this verse as teaching the Doctrine of Original Sin would do great injustice to several passages which would clearly contradict your view.
For instance:
“The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, p. 196).
JKWilliamsSr Said: Now when you think about that you can also notice how the conception of Jesus was not done in a manner consistent with our human births. That also signifies how we are born in sin becuase the only sinless man to walk the earth was not conceived in our manner.
JKWilliamsSr Said: Another thing to think about. If we are not born into sin why did we need Jesus to come pay the price?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Jesus did not pay for "Original" sin... He paid for MY sin which I MYSELF comitted; so I believe.
DAN'S RESPONSE: As for David being conceived in sin, could such an interpretation stand in light of the exegetical contextual interpretation of the Word of God?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Scripture clearly states that sin is NOT inherited:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God
Also, Scripture states that we become sinners in our YOUTH, not out infancy:
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Jeremiah 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
In conclusion:
Here is what Wayne Jackson states concerning verse 5 of Psalm 51:
Others have suggested that David alludes to an incident in his ancestral lineage, an adulterous affair (Gen. 3Cool, whereby he was considered ceremonially defiled because he was of the 10th generation of that unlawful intercourse (Deut. 23:2). This is probably a rather remote possibility.
The same author notes:
In a similarly poetic section, for example, Job, in denying that he had neglected his benevolent responsibilities, affirmed that he had cared for the orphan and the widow from his mother’s womb! Surely, no one believes that on day one of Job’s existence that he was out ministering to the needy! In fact, the Hebrew parallelism of this verse (Job 31:1Cool, clearly indicates that the word “womb” is used in the sense of “youth.”
In conclusion, how do you reconcile your Original Sin doctrine, based on one verse, with what I have herein stated?
I look forward to your response, brother.
May God continue to use you as you continue to serve Him.
Blessings in Yeshua,
In Christ,
Dan